{"id":3338,"date":"2026-05-18T20:13:38","date_gmt":"2026-05-18T11:13:38","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/hypnospark.com\/english\/?post_type=podcast_episode&#038;p=3338"},"modified":"2026-06-18T16:58:51","modified_gmt":"2026-06-18T07:58:51","slug":"fear-of-flying-hypnotherapy","status":"publish","type":"podcast_episode","link":"https:\/\/hypnospark.com\/english\/podcast_episode\/fear-of-flying-hypnotherapy\/","title":{"rendered":"Savannah Fear of Flying"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-columns alignfull stk-block-columns stk-block stk-a2c9abb stk-block-background stk--has-background-overlay\" data-block-id=\"a2c9abb\"><style>.stk-a2c9abb {background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;background-image:url(https:\/\/hypnospark.com\/english\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/08\/rays-of-light-village.webp) !important;min-height:400px !important;align-items:center !important;display:flex !important;}.stk-a2c9abb:before{background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;opacity:0.5 !important;}<\/style><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks stk-block-content stk-content-align stk-a2c9abb-column alignfull\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-column stk-block-column stk-column stk-block stk-0966db8 stk-block-background\" data-v=\"4\" data-block-id=\"0966db8\"><style>.stk-0966db8 {background-color:#ffffff73 !important;}.stk-0966db8:before{background-color:#ffffff73 !important;}<\/style><div class=\"stk-column-wrapper stk-block-column__content stk-container stk-0966db8-container stk--no-background stk--no-padding\"><div class=\"stk-block-content stk-inner-blocks stk-0966db8-inner-blocks\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-heading stk-block-heading stk-block-heading--v2 stk-block stk-3d87f20\" id=\"fear-of-flying-and-a-band-called-flypaper\" data-block-id=\"3d87f20\"><style>.stk-3d87f20 .stk-block-heading__text{color:var(--stk-global-color-12964, #7b3731) !important;letter-spacing:1px !important;}<\/style><h1 class=\"stk-block-heading__text has-text-color has-text-align-center\">Fear of Flying and a Band Called Flypaper<\/h1><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-button-group stk-block-button-group stk-block stk-dac1ec1\" data-block-id=\"dac1ec1\"><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks has-text-align-center stk-block-content stk-button-group\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-button stk-block-button stk-block stk-5f9d68f\" data-block-id=\"5f9d68f\"><style>.stk-5f9d68f .stk-button{background:var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33) !important;}.stk-5f9d68f .stk-button:hover:after{background:var(--stk-global-color-12964, #7b3731) !important;opacity:1 !important;}.stk-5f9d68f .stk-button__inner-text{color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;font-weight:bold !important;}.stk-5f9d68f .stk-button:hover .stk-button__inner-text{color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;}<\/style><a class=\"stk-link stk-button stk--hover-effect-darken\" href=\"#episode-player\"><span class=\"has-text-color stk-button__inner-text\">Listen to Savannah&#8217;s Story<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-heading stk-block-heading stk-block-heading--v2 stk-block stk-f811b6a\" id=\"span-style-color-var-stk-global-color-3756-d-25-c-33-class-stk-highlight-description-span\" data-block-id=\"f811b6a\"><style>.stk-f811b6a .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.602rem !important;color:var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33) !important;line-height:1.5em !important;font-weight:600 !important;font-family:\"DM Serif Display\", Sans-serif !important;letter-spacing:1px !important;}@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-f811b6a .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.4rem !important;line-height:1.4em !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-f811b6a .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.2rem !important;}}<\/style><h3 class=\"stk-block-heading__text has-text-color has-text-align-center\"><span style=\"color: var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33);\" class=\"stk-highlight\">Description:<\/span><\/h3><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-text stk-block-text stk-block stk-a4e9e7d\" data-block-id=\"a4e9e7d\"><style>.stk-a4e9e7d {margin-bottom:25px !important;}.stk-a4e9e7d .stk-block-text__text{font-size:1rem !important;line-height:1.5em !important;font-family:\"Inter\", Sans-serif !important;}@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-a4e9e7d {margin-bottom:36px !important;}.stk-a4e9e7d .stk-block-text__text{font-size:0.937rem !important;line-height:1.4em !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-a4e9e7d {margin-bottom:29px !important;}.stk-a4e9e7d .stk-block-text__text{font-size:0.875rem !important;}}<\/style><p class=\"stk-block-text__text\">Savannah Cisneros\u2019s band Flypaper has been offered an amazing opportunity that involves traveling by plane, something Savannah is afraid to do. She doesn\u2019t want to let her band down, but she\u2019s terrified. Listen in to hear hosts Karisha and Makiko discuss different ways to deal with discomfort. They also explain why our decision-making becomes less flexible in times of stress. &nbsp;<\/p><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-heading stk-block-heading stk-block-heading--v2 stk-block stk-e782662\" id=\"span-style-color-var-stk-global-color-3756-d-25-c-33-class-stk-highlight-key-takeaways-span\" data-block-id=\"e782662\"><style>.stk-e782662 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.602rem !important;font-weight:bold !important;}@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-e782662 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.4rem !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-e782662 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.2rem !important;}}<\/style><h3 class=\"stk-block-heading__text has-text-align-center\"><span style=\"color: var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33);\" class=\"stk-highlight\">Key Takeaways<\/span><\/h3><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list stk-block-icon-list stk-block stk-7a8a8f9\" data-block-id=\"7a8a8f9\"><style>.stk-7a8a8f9 {--stk-icon-list-row-gap:12px !important;--stk-icon-list-marker-color:var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33) !important;margin-bottom:50px !important;}.stk-7a8a8f9:hover{--stk-icon-list-marker-color:var(--stk-global-color-12964, #7b3731) !important;}.stk-7a8a8f9 .stk-block-icon-list-item__content{align-items:baseline !important;}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-7a8a8f9 {margin-bottom:31px !important;}}<\/style><svg style=\"display:none\"><defs><g id=\"stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><svg xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\" viewBox=\"0 0 384 512\"><path d=\"M297.2 248.9C311.6 228.3 320 203.2 320 176c0-70.7-57.3-128-128-128S64 105.3 64 176c0 27.2 8.4 52.3 22.8 72.9c3.7 5.3 8.1 11.3 12.8 17.7l0 0c12.9 17.7 28.3 38.9 39.8 59.8c10.4 19 15.7 38.8 18.3 57.5H109c-2.2-12-5.9-23.7-11.8-34.5c-9.9-18-22.2-34.9-34.5-51.8l0 0 0 0c-5.2-7.1-10.4-14.2-15.4-21.4C27.6 247.9 16 213.3 16 176C16 78.8 94.8 0 192 0s176 78.8 176 176c0 37.3-11.6 71.9-31.4 100.3c-5 7.2-10.2 14.3-15.4 21.4l0 0 0 0c-12.3 16.8-24.6 33.7-34.5 51.8c-5.9 10.8-9.6 22.5-11.8 34.5H226.4c2.6-18.7 7.9-38.6 18.3-57.5c11.5-20.9 26.9-42.1 39.8-59.8l0 0 0 0 0 0c4.7-6.4 9-12.4 12.7-17.7zM192 128c-26.5 0-48 21.5-48 48c0 8.8-7.2 16-16 16s-16-7.2-16-16c0-44.2 35.8-80 80-80c8.8 0 16 7.2 16 16s-7.2 16-16 16zm0 384c-44.2 0-80-35.8-80-80V416H272v16c0 44.2-35.8 80-80 80z\"\/><\/svg><\/g><\/defs><\/svg><ul class=\"stk-block-icon-list__ul stk-block-icon-list--column\">\n<li class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list-item stk-block-icon-list-item stk-block stk-2c07c5a\" data-block-id=\"2c07c5a\"><div class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__content\"><span class=\"stk--svg-wrapper\"><div class=\"stk--inner-svg\"><svg aria-hidden=\"true\" width=\"32\" height=\"32\"><use xlink:href=\"#stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><\/use><\/svg><\/div><\/span><span class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__text\">Fighting your fear harder might be exactly what&#8217;s keeping you stuck.<\/span><\/div><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list-item stk-block-icon-list-item stk-block stk-2c8932c\" data-block-id=\"2c8932c\"><div class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__content\"><span class=\"stk--svg-wrapper\"><div class=\"stk--inner-svg\"><svg aria-hidden=\"true\" width=\"32\" height=\"32\"><use xlink:href=\"#stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><\/use><\/svg><\/div><\/span><span class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__text\">Fear doesn&#8217;t just scare you \u2014 it quietly blocks solutions that are right in front of you, and you may never see them without someone else pointing them out.<\/span><\/div><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list-item stk-block-icon-list-item stk-block stk-2e38ef5\" data-block-id=\"2e38ef5\"><div class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__content\"><span class=\"stk--svg-wrapper\"><div class=\"stk--inner-svg\"><svg aria-hidden=\"true\" width=\"32\" height=\"32\"><use xlink:href=\"#stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><\/use><\/svg><\/div><\/span><span class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__text\">What if your anxiety isn&#8217;t just in your head, but triggered by what you grabbed to eat before it hit?<\/span><\/div><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list-item stk-block-icon-list-item stk-block stk-94e84f0\" data-block-id=\"94e84f0\"><div class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__content\"><span class=\"stk--svg-wrapper\"><div class=\"stk--inner-svg\"><svg aria-hidden=\"true\" width=\"32\" height=\"32\"><use xlink:href=\"#stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><\/use><\/svg><\/div><\/span><span class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__text\">Gritting your teeth through discomfort might actually be making things harder.<\/span><\/div><\/li>\n\n\n\n<li class=\"wp-block-stackable-icon-list-item stk-block-icon-list-item stk-block stk-fbd4bbe\" data-block-id=\"fbd4bbe\"><div class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__content\"><span class=\"stk--svg-wrapper\"><div class=\"stk--inner-svg\"><svg aria-hidden=\"true\" width=\"32\" height=\"32\"><use xlink:href=\"#stk-icon-list__icon-svg-def-7a8a8f9\"><\/use><\/svg><\/div><\/span><span class=\"stk-block-icon-list-item__text\">Hypnotherapy isn&#8217;t about losing control \u2014 it&#8217;s about finding a calm you didn&#8217;t know existed. But how does that actually work when your whole body is screaming with fear?<\/span><\/div><\/li>\n<\/ul><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-columns stk-block-columns stk-block stk-174834a stk-block-background\" id=\"episode-player\" data-block-id=\"174834a\"><style>.stk-174834a {background-color:#44546959 !important;border-top-left-radius:12px !important;border-top-right-radius:12px !important;border-bottom-right-radius:12px !important;border-bottom-left-radius:12px !important;overflow:hidden !important;padding-top:15px !important;padding-right:15px !important;padding-bottom:15px !important;padding-left:15px !important;}.stk-174834a:before{background-color:#44546959 !important;}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-174834a {padding-top:10px !important;padding-right:10px !important;padding-bottom:10px !important;padding-left:10px !important;}}<\/style><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks stk-block-content stk-content-align stk-174834a-column\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-column stk-block-column stk-column stk-block stk-b735445\" data-v=\"4\" data-block-id=\"b735445\"><div class=\"stk-column-wrapper stk-block-column__content stk-container stk-b735445-container stk--no-background stk--no-padding\"><div class=\"stk-block-content stk-inner-blocks stk-b735445-inner-blocks\">\n<iframe data-testid=\"embed-iframe\" style=\"border-radius:12px\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3dAw9cfDzd3XCkksrtBin4?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameBorder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\"><\/iframe>\n\n\n\n<div style=\"text-align: right;\">\n<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/rays-of-light\/id1812803914?itscg=30200&#038;itsct=podcast_box_badge&#038;ls=1&#038;mttnsubad=1812803914\" style=\"display: inline-block;\">\n    <img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/toolbox.marketingtools.apple.com\/api\/v2\/badges\/listen-on-apple-podcasts\/badge-26\/en-us\" alt=\"Listen on Apple Podcasts\" style=\"width: 130px; height: 41px; vertical-align: middle; object-fit: contain;\" \/>\n<\/a>\n<\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-spacer stk-block-spacer stk--no-padding stk-block stk-4236389\" data-block-id=\"4236389\"><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-columns alignwide stk-block-columns stk-block stk-121ee28 stk-block-background\" data-block-id=\"121ee28\" data-block-type=\"core\" data-block-type=\"core\"><style>.stk-121ee28 {background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;padding-top:16px !important;padding-right:16px !important;padding-bottom:16px !important;padding-left:16px !important;}.stk-121ee28:before{background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;}<\/style><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks stk-block-content stk-content-align stk-121ee28-column alignwide\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-column stk-block-column stk-column stk-block stk-488c70f\" data-v=\"4\" data-block-id=\"488c70f\"><div class=\"stk-column-wrapper stk-block-column__content stk-container stk-488c70f-container stk--no-background stk--no-padding\"><div class=\"stk-block-content stk-inner-blocks stk-488c70f-inner-blocks\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-text stk-block-text stk-block stk-eedaa64\" data-block-id=\"eedaa64\"><style>.stk-eedaa64 .stk-block-text__text{color:var(--stk-global-color-12964, #7b3731) !important;}<\/style><p class=\"stk-block-text__text has-text-color has-text-align-center\">Each episode of Rays of Light takes place in the fictional village of Sunnyside.<br>Would you like to support our show? Why, thank you! <br>You can subscribe to our newsletter right here, so you won&#8217;t miss a single episode.<\/p><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-button-group stk-block-button-group stk-block stk-fede60c\" data-block-id=\"fede60c\"><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks has-text-align-center stk-block-content stk-button-group\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-button stk-block-button has-text-align-center stk-block stk-95dbde3\" data-block-id=\"95dbde3\"><style>.stk-95dbde3 .stk-button{background:var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33) !important;}.stk-95dbde3 .stk-button:hover:after{background:var(--stk-global-color-12964, #7b3731) !important;opacity:1 !important;}.stk-95dbde3 .stk-button__inner-text{color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;font-weight:bold !important;}.stk-95dbde3 .stk-button:hover .stk-button__inner-text{color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;}<\/style><a class=\"stk-link stk-button stk--hover-effect-darken\" href=\"https:\/\/app.popt.in\/api\/display\/click\/33d6871eea006\"><span class=\"has-text-color stk-button__inner-text\">Don&#8217;t Miss an Episode<\/span><\/a><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-spacer stk-block-spacer stk--no-padding stk-block stk-7c8f3ed\" data-block-id=\"7c8f3ed\"><style>@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-7c8f3ed {height:20px !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-7c8f3ed {height:20px !important;}}<\/style><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-columns alignwide stk-block-columns stk-block stk-4fee9e9 stk-block-background\" data-block-id=\"4fee9e9\"><style>.stk-4fee9e9 {background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;}.stk-4fee9e9:before{background-color:var(--stk-global-color-76216, #ffffff) !important;}<\/style><div class=\"stk-row stk-inner-blocks stk-block-content stk-content-align stk-4fee9e9-column alignwide\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-column stk-block-column stk-column stk-block stk-e2cab80\" data-v=\"4\" data-block-id=\"e2cab80\"><div class=\"stk-column-wrapper stk-block-column__content stk-container stk-e2cab80-container stk--no-background stk--no-padding\"><div class=\"stk-block-content stk-inner-blocks stk-e2cab80-inner-blocks\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-heading stk-block-heading stk-block-heading--v2 stk-block stk-5f99429\" id=\"span-style-color-var-stk-global-color-3756-d-25-c-33-class-stk-highlight-transcript-span\" data-block-id=\"5f99429\"><style>.stk-5f99429 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.602rem !important;line-height:1.5rem !important;font-weight:600 !important;font-family:\"DM Serif Display\", Sans-serif !important;letter-spacing:1px !important;}@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-5f99429 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.4rem !important;line-height:1.4em !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-5f99429 .stk-block-heading__text{font-size:1.2rem !important;}}<\/style><h3 class=\"stk-block-heading__text has-text-align-center\"><span style=\"color: var(--stk-global-color-3756, #d25c33);\" class=\"stk-highlight\">Transcript<\/span><\/h3><\/div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-stackable-text stk-block-text stk-block stk-14819f5\" data-block-id=\"14819f5\"><style>.stk-14819f5 .stk-block-text__text{font-size:1rem !important;line-height:1.5em !important;font-family:\"inter\", Sans-serif !important;}@media screen and (max-width:999px){.stk-14819f5 .stk-block-text__text{font-size:0.937rem !important;line-height:1.4em !important;}}@media screen and (max-width:689px){.stk-14819f5 .stk-block-text__text{font-size:0.875rem !important;}}<\/style><p class=\"stk-block-text__text\">Hi Makiko. <br>Hi Karisha. <br><br>Welcome to Rays of Light and the fictional village of Sunnyside.<br>Is there a topic or character type you&#8217;d like us to focus on? <br>Please let us know by using the contact information in the show notes.<br><br>Savannah&#8217;s band Flypaper rehearses in the partially finished basement of the house Zazzy, the bass player, rents. Tonight they&#8217;re celebrating being chosen as a last-minute replacement headliner for Bloomington, Indiana&#8217;s annual Grandfalloon Festival. <br><br>\u201cThis is the beginning of everything,\u201d the band&#8217;s drummer Jenny says dramatically, handing around slices of the pizza she ordered as soon as she heard the wonderful news.<br>\u201cThat band biography you wrote was amazing, Nastassya!\u201d <br>\u201cIt was the video of us performing in the park that got us the gig,\u201d Nastassya  says. \u201cBe sure to thank your mom again. She has serious skills.\u201d<br>\u201cWe are the champions!\u201d Min-Ji sings in Savannah&#8217;s face.<br><br>Savannah forces herself to smile as she pretends to shoo Min-Ji away. Before it had fully sunk in how delightful it was that her band had been chosen, Savannah began dreading the flight she&#8217;d expected to take to get there. The last time she was on a plane, she felt like she was having a nervous breakdown during takeoff, and she spent the rest of the flight trying to calm down. Luckily, she was on her way home, and she hasn&#8217;t had to fly since. <br><br>She wonders if anyone will be willing to drive to the festival with her. She looks up how long it will take by car. About 36 hours. The festival isn&#8217;t for three months, so she has some time to come up with a plan. <br><br>A university student reporter from the city where the festival will occur emails Savannah to schedule a phone interview. Although she loves the idea of being interviewed, it reminds her that there are now only two and a half months until she&#8217;ll be expected to get on a plane. By the time the reporter calls, it&#8217;s down to 10 weeks and three days. <br><br>His first question is about the band&#8217;s name.<br>\u201cWhy did you call yourselves Flypaper?\u201d he asks. <br>\u201cWell,\u201d Savannah says, \u201cIt&#8217;s from this book by David Grossman where one of the characters is talking about how people are like flies, so the stories they are told should be like flypaper.\u201d<br>\u201cWow. You know what? My name is David too. I think I forgot to introduce myself.\u201d<br>\u201cNice to meet you,\u201d Savannah says. <br>\u201cDavid Yadav, actually. My full name, I mean. I love to read.\u201d<br>\u201cNice,\u201d Savannah says. \u201cI read Grossman&#8217;s book for an insanely intense literature seminar in college. Had no idea what I was getting into.\u201d<br>&#8220;Wow, that&#8217;s cool. I&#8217;m about to graduate. Um, so what kind of music does your band play?\u201d<br>\u201cPost-existential grit rock,\u201d Savannah says smoothly. Then she repeats it two times until he&#8217;s gotten it. <br>\u201cUm,\u201d David says, \u201chow would you describe post-existential grit rock?\u201d<br>\u201cWell, existential grit is basically what we develop to deal with all the crap life throws at us, including the questions of meaning and purpose.\u201d Savannah says, thinking of how much grit she&#8217;s gonna need to not melt down on the plane, if she can even make herself get on it. <br><br>She continues. \u201cIt&#8217;s about having goals and focusing on them instead of feeling hopeless.\u201d<br>\u201cThat sounds good,\u201d David says. <br>\u201cSure. And our music is post- existential grit, so more about moving to acceptance. No more gritting, you know.\u201d<br>\u201cNo more gritting,\u201d David repeats cheerfully. \u201cAnd was the type of music also inspired by that book you mentioned?\u201d<br>\u201cNope, we tell stories, which is why we&#8217;re a great fit for a festival inspired by the writer Kurt Vonnegut.\u201d<br>\u201cWow, give me a sec to jot that down. Okay, so how did you become a post-existential grit rock band?\u201d<br><br>\u201cOur sound and ethos evolved over time,\u201d Savannah says, since she just made up the entire musical genre. That&#8217;s one of her skills, spouting nonsense in a confident manner. <br>&#8220;Great, great,\u201d David says. \u201cI forgot to mention that I love your music. I listened to all of it as soon as I heard I&#8217;d be interviewing you.\u201d<br>\u201cThank you,\u201d Savannah responds warmly.<br>\u201cI&#8217;m so sorry,\u201d David says abruptly. \u201cMy mom is calling for the third time. I&#8217;m worried something is wrong.\u201d<br>\u201cOh, please call her back.\u201d<br>\u201cThank you. I&#8217;ll text about scheduling again.\u201d<br><br>Karisha: So Savannah, when she&#8217;s describing her musical genre, is talking about, she&#8217;s making up, is talking about becoming, accepting discomfort, becoming more comfortable with discomfort instead of like having to grit and fight against it. And like something we always talk about is the harder you push against something, the stronger it becomes, right? Because when we&#8217;re thinking, don&#8217;t think this thought, don&#8217;t think this thought or whatever, we think it more and more. It just doesn&#8217;t really work. <br><br>And something we do with hypnotherapy is we try to lower discomfort wherever possible. Often, it&#8217;s not possible to remove it completely. I&#8217;m talking about all kinds of discomfort. So in those cases, we do help people become more comfortable and able to expand their comfort with discomfort.<br><br>Makiko: So when there is a trigger for discomfort, and that trigger should not be the trigger for discomfort, then we can desensitize, which we&#8217;re going to talk about later, to that trigger. But there are cases where we kind of have to live with the discomfort, at least for maybe a certain period of time. And so like when you have some financial issues, you know, and that would give you a discomfort, but it&#8217;s not necessarily something that you can resolve within a few weeks, maybe, you know, it could take several months, or maybe a few years. <br><br>And it would be unreasonable to expect to completely eliminate that discomfort. And so then we can help to feel, you know, to be able to manage the discomfort, I guess, <br><br>Karisha: Right, and to still be able to enjoy life and have positive experiences while experiencing this discomfort.<br><br>At the beginning of her band&#8217;s next practice, Savannah says she has something she needs to talk to them about. Jenny looks at Min-Ji  nervously. They&#8217;d been discussing how strangely Savannah&#8217;s been behaving.<br><br>\u201cI don&#8217;t think I can go to a festival gig,\u201d Savannah says. There is an explosion of protest from the rest of the band. <br>\u201cWhy?\u201d<br>\u201cWhat&#8217;s going on?\u201d<br>&#8220;What do you mean you can&#8217;t go?\u201d<br>&#8220;That&#8217;s crazy.\u201d<br><br>\u201cCalm down. Let me explain. If I get on the plane, I&#8217;ll freak out. It happened before and I can&#8217;t do it again.\u201d<br>\u201cYou&#8217;re afraid of flying?\u201d Jenny asks. \u201cOr are you claustrophobic?\u201d<br>\u201cWe can get you medication,\u201d Min-Ji  says. <br>&#8220;Or you can use mine.\u201d Nastassya volunteers. <br>\u201cI&#8217;m afraid of flying,\u201d Savannah says. \u201cAnd I&#8217;m afraid if I take enough of anything to calm down, I won&#8217;t recover in time for the performance. You know how I am.\u201d<br><br>Jenny groans. \u201cYeah, but it&#8217;s better to risk it than not go. We can&#8217;t perform without you.\u201d<br>\u201cWhat about driving?\u201d Zazzy asks. \u201cI&#8217;ll go with you. My car&#8217;s in pretty good shape.\u201d<br>&#8220;I was thinking about that,\u201d Savannah says gratefully. \u201cIt would only take two days if we took turns.\u201d<br>\u201cBut haven&#8217;t you already used up all your days off, Savannah?\u201d Jenny asks. Savannah&#8217;s shoulders slump. <br>\u201cAnd it&#8217;s not like you&#8217;d be able to drive nonstop. You&#8217;d end up taking way longer.\u201d<br>\u201cIt&#8217;s worth quitting for this,\u201d Zazzy insists. \u201cWe&#8217;ll help you get something else.\u201d<br><br>\u201cWhy don&#8217;t you try hypnosis?\u201d Min-Ji  suggests. <br>\u201cHypnosis?\u201d Nastassya asks in surprise.<br>\u201cSure, it&#8217;s great for fears and stuff.\u201d<br>\u201cHave you ever been hypnotized?\u201d<br>\u201cNot yet,\u201d Min-Ji  admits. \u201cBut I&#8217;ve been thinking about it for my nail-biting.\u201d<br>\u201cWell, I&#8217;ll support anything that gets Savannah to our gig,\u201d Jenny says. \u201cIf you&#8217;re willing to try it out, Savannah, let me know what it costs. I&#8217;ll help.\u201d<br>\u201cI can kick in too,\u201d Zazzy offers. <br>\u201cUh, thanks. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m okay for the first session,\u201d Savannah says unconvincingly. They all know about the desperate state of her finances. <br>\u201cYou don&#8217;t even know what it costs yet,\u201d Min-Ji  says. I can help too.\u201d<br>\u201cMaybe,\u201d Savannah says. At 26, she&#8217;s already declared bankruptcy after the combination of a rough divorce, a health emergency, and a job loss led to enormous debts.<br>Nastassya says, \u201cif we all tip in, it&#8217;ll be easy.\u201d<br>\u201cI know someone who used hypnotherapy to help with a very personal, private problem that I can&#8217;t share,\u201d Min-Ji says. I&#8217;ll ask him who he went to.\u201d<br>\u201cWhat problem?\u201d Jenny asks loudly, as Zazzy yells, \u201cWho? Liam? Was it Liam?\u201d<br>\u201cYou&#8217;re all so great,\u201d Savannah says, \u201cand much better with money than I am.\u201d<br><br>When Savannah talks to the reporter the second time, it&#8217;s over a video call.<br>\u201cSorry about leaving so quickly before,\u201ds David says. \u201cThank you for agreeing to talk again. Last time, I was about to mention that I read somewhere that you said your music was post \u2018pretty\u2019 pop.\u201d<br>\u201cThat was an aesthetic judgment I was making, not a musical one. We&#8217;ve all had hard lives, and it shows. I&#8217;m 26, and people regularly think I&#8217;m in my late 30s. Same with Jenny, who&#8217;s my age. The rest of the band is 28 to 39, and they&#8217;ve had it rough too. But Jenny and I are always thought to be the oldest. It&#8217;s so weird, but we just embrace it. No expectations. Our photos don&#8217;t have special lighting or filters or touch-ups.\u201d<br><br>\u201cWow, that&#8217;s impressive. I mean, you all look great, but\u2026\u201d Savannah interrupts.<br>\u201cOn the other hand, I love beauty and I respect people that want to work for it, and I do spend money and time on my hair.\u201d<br>\u201cCool. Cool. I read that you have a fan club named \u2018I&#8217;ve Lived\u2019. Based on your song, \u2018I&#8217;ve Lived Hard and My Face Shows It\u2019. It sounds like the crowds love singing along with that one. Will you perform it at the festival?\u201d<br>\u201cFor sure.\u201d<br><br>\u201cWell, like I said, I think it&#8217;s cool you&#8217;re into looking old. I mean, you know, you don&#8217;t look old, but you don&#8217;t try to hide your hard lives. That&#8217;s cool. I&#8217;m almost 21, and people regularly think I&#8217;m 15, and that&#8217;s not really great for me.\u201d<br>\u201cOh, you don&#8217;t look 15.\u201d<br>\u201cOh, wow. Well, thank you.\u201d<br><br>Since he seems too flustered to go on, Savannah says, suddenly serious, \u201cI&#8217;m going to tell you something.\u201d She pauses for a moment. <br>\u201cI&#8217;m afraid of flying and I don&#8217;t have enough vacation days to drive, so I&#8217;m going to see a hypnotherapist. I&#8217;m also scared about that, but my band&#8217;s paying and I don&#8217;t want to admit it to them.\u201d<br>&#8220;You&#8217;re gonna see what?\u201d<br>&#8220;Someone that uses hypnosis. But I&#8217;m worried it won&#8217;t work and my bandmates will be so disappointed, like I&#8217;m letting them down.\u201d<br>\u201cOh,\u201d David says. <br><br>Savannah continues. \u201cLast time I was about to fly, when I was in the aisle of the plane going to my seat, I suddenly felt really lightheaded and had a hard time catching my breath. I couldn&#8217;t even lift my bag to the overhead bin. It&#8217;s mostly a blur now, but some really impatient guy kind of grabbed it from me and threw it in.\u201d<br>\u201cWow, that&#8217;s intense,\u201d David says. \u201cSo the whole flight you felt like that?\u201d<br>\u201cI had a strong feeling that something terrible was going to happen. I was just so scared. It was like I was going to die. I was basically frozen in my seat, which I guess is better than screaming.\u201d<br>\u201cWell, I&#8217;m sorry you went through that. I hope your sessions go well. And thank you for telling me. I won&#8217;t write about it, of course.\u201d<br><br>&#8220;Thank you for listening. It helps to tell someone. So what did you want to ask me about?\u201d<br>\u201cOh, well, I was gonna ask about your song called \u2018Flypaper\u2019. It sounds like the band name is about attracting and then catching people. But the song Flypaper has the lyrics, \u2018extricating myself from the flight paper, hoping the filth washes off.\u2019 That seems to be saying something different.\u201d<br>\u201cYou&#8217;re right, David. Good catch. I was in a relationship where I wasn&#8217;t told the whole story about the other person&#8217;s reality. And that&#8217;s what caught me and tortured me. A death by flight paper isn&#8217;t quick. It&#8217;s horrible. By the way, I don&#8217;t support hurting insects.\u201d<br>\u201cI love your song about insects, too.\u201d David says, \u201cIt&#8217;s probably my favorite.\u201d <br><br>He continues over her thanks. \u201cSo this relationship, whose fault was it? Or is that a dumb question?\u201d<br>\u201cNo, it&#8217;s a great question. There were some things the other person didn&#8217;t disclose that he should have. But there&#8217;s also a lot of misunderstanding. Speaking of questions, I could have asked more.\u201d <br>David laughs and then says thoughtfully. \u201cSo you prefer relationships where you are told everything right off?\u201d Savannah nods.<br>David says, \u201cI wish I could come get you, but I don&#8217;t have a car.\u201d<br>Savannah stares at him for a moment in surprise. \u201cOh, well, thank you for the thought.\u201d<br>\u201cSorry, I just remembered you said you don&#8217;t have time to drive. Well, I&#8217;d better go now.\u201d He says in embarrassment. After he abruptly ends the meeting, Savannah stares at her computer screen for a few minutes, smiling. <br><br>Two weeks later, Savannah looks up from her notebook when Jenny, Nastassaya, and Min-Ji  come into the band&#8217;s rehearsal basement. She begins to speak quickly in her excitement.<br>\u201cHey, I&#8217;m working on a new song about finding meaning. I have a melody in my head, but I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s right.\u201d She hums a few bars. \u201cIt&#8217;s about how we grew up learning the world is made of separate things. So we go around trying to find meaning as if it were a thing. But that doesn&#8217;t work since it&#8217;s not a thing. And I heard this cool comparison between meaning and gravity. Gravity isn&#8217;t something separate. It&#8217;s something that happens between things and so is meaning. Meaning exists between us and other people, between us and other parts of ourselves, between us and our connections with nature. And the goal is that by the end, the audience is feeling connections which are meaning.\u201d<br>\u201cWhoa, that sounds great, Min-Ji  says.<br>Jenny nods. \u201cI love the idea of creating a somatic experience for the audience, linking the words to the music to their bodies.\u201d<br>\u201cMe too,\u201d Savannah says. \u201cIt needs some work and maybe we can play around with the melody after we practice our festival lineup.\u201d<br><br>\u201cBut how was your first hypnotherapy session?\u201d Jenny asks.<br>\u201cOh, it was great. That&#8217;s why I was writing this song, actually. Hypnotherapy is a somatic experience too. Anyway, in my next session, we&#8217;re going to work on my anticipatory anxiety.\u201d \u201cWhat&#8217;s that?\u201d Zazzy asks.<br>\u201cIt&#8217;s what I&#8217;m nervous about before I even get on the plane.\u201d<br>\u201cLike nervous about being nervous?\u201d<br>\u201cYes. I never heard of it before today either. But it&#8217;s basically whatever now seems stressful because of the fear.\u201d<br>\u201cDo you think you&#8217;ll be ready for the trip?\u201d Jenny asks. <br>\u201cEight weeks until takeoff.\u201d Savannah says cheerily. Jenny and Min-Ji  smile at each other in relief.<br><br>Karisha: Just wanted to give a shout out to the wonderful hypnotherapist and instructor Elaine Perliss. She gave us our more advanced training in fears and phobias. And also to psychologist and researcher Glenn Hartelius, whose description of meaning at a discussion I attended recently became part of Savannah&#8217;s song. I feel like a lot of the things he says sound very poetic and calming. So he inspired that. <br><br>Savannah is at her favorite salon having red highlights put into her long hair when she overhears a man talking about the delays on his recent flight. <br>\u201cWe sat on the plane for two hours before I took off,\u201d he complains. Savannah wants to plug her ears and hum to prevent herself from hearing anymore. Instead, for the next 10 minutes, she listens to him complain about all the discomforts he suffered. <br><br>At her second hypnotherapy appointment three days later, she announces that flying is a truly ridiculous thing to do. And trying to get over her fear seems like a really bad idea.<br>\u201cOh, did you come up with another way to get to the festival?\u201d Her hypnotherapist Reina Ibarra asks. <br>\u201cNo,\u201d Savannah says. \u201cI still have to either quit my job and drive or not go.\u201d<br>\u201cWhich of those would you rather do?\u201d Savannah slumps down in her chair.<br>\u201cNeither. I just want to magically be there and then magically be home.\u201d<br>\u201cThat would be the best way to travel.\u201d Reina agrees. <br><br>\u201cSo maybe you could see if your job would let you take time off. I know you said it wouldn&#8217;t, but it might be worth asking before you just quit, right?\u201d<br>Savannah nods. <br>\u201cAnd then you could drive to the festival, perform, drive home.\u201d<br>\u201cYeah,\u201d Savannah says unenthusiastically.<br>\u201cDo you think there will be another time when this might come up again?\u201d Reina asks. Savannah sighs. \u201cWell, one of my biggest dreams is to go to Egypt.\u201d They sit in silence for a few moments. Savannah sighs again.<br>\u201cI guess sitting on the plane for two extra hours like that whiny guy in the hair salon wouldn&#8217;t be that bad if I felt calm and had something good to read.\u201d<br><br>Karisha: Savannah jumping right to the fact that she&#8217;ll need to quit her job because she has no more vacation time instead of considering that, you know, asking is worthwhile, is an example of the kind of rigid thinking or uncreative thinking that we get caught up in when we&#8217;re really afraid, really anxious or stressed, any kind of negative emotions going on. And so it might seem silly that she didn&#8217;t even mention that as an option. But you become really black and white and you&#8217;re thinking in these kind of situations. So it&#8217;s one of the reasons it&#8217;s helpful to talk to someone else to get another perspective.<br><br>Makiko: That is true. We do tend to sort of assume things instead of actually confirming or checking. And often, things turn out better than you expect. So it&#8217;s always worth trying. But we do kind of get stuck in that mindset very easily.<br><br>Karisha: This isn&#8217;t a tendency we just have in fear state. It&#8217;s just any kind of negative state. Exactly.<br><br>A week later, David texts Savannah to say he forgot a few questions. And she agrees to do another video call with him. <br>\u201cHave you had a hypnosis session?\u201d He asks eagerly as soon as they begin. <br>\u201cI&#8217;ve had two.\u201d<br>\u201cWhat were they like?\u201d<br>\u201cWell, for my second one, I figured out when I start getting anxious about flying, which is at the thought of packing for the trip. And I got to a good place with packing, which I proved by packing everything the next day. Of course, I&#8217;ve been living out of my suitcase ever since.\u201d<br><br>David laughs. \u201cSo it&#8217;s working. I was wondering about the flight you got scared on. Was there turbulence or something?\u201d<br>\u201cNo. And I had no idea why it happened when I&#8217;d flown many other times without a problem. But I only had a banana and coffee before I left. And my hypnotherapist was telling me that when someone&#8217;s blood sugar level drops, it can feel like anxiety or worse. And I was also exhausted and in a hurry and all of that typical travel stuff.\u201d<br><br>\u201cInteresting,\u201d David says. \u201cHey, thank you for meeting with me again. I was just wondering about your song, \u2018Gold Foil Utopia.\u2019 It sounds like you&#8217;re saying stories that are too idealistic don&#8217;t attract people. It seems related to your band name.\u201d<br>\u201cGood catch.\u201d Savannah says again. \u201cThat&#8217;s also inspired by the book. I&#8217;ve never had my lyrics observed this closely as far as I know. And I love it. My ego is expanding by the second.\u201d<br><br>David laughs again. \u201cWell, I&#8217;m happy to be the first. The first of many, I&#8217;m sure.\u201d<br>\u201cThanks, David. Do you have all the band info you need?\u201d <br>\u201cLet me see.\u201d David says. \u201cIs this all correct? You are the songwriter, lead singer, and you play guitar. Jenny&#8217;s on drums. Min-Ji &#8216;s the lead guitarist. Zazzy&#8217;s on bass. Nastassya&#8217;s on keyboard. And everyone does vocals.\u201d<br>\u201cYou got it. Hey, thank you for the interview, David. I&#8217;ve got to leave for work in a minute. Have we covered everything you wanted?\u201d<br>\u201cYes, thank you so much. I&#8217;ll be looking forward to your performance.\u201d<br>\u201cBe sure to come up and say hi, Savannah says. <br>\u201cI will.\u201d<br><br>Two weeks later, when the band is eating a snack after practice, Nastassya asks. <br>\u201cSo, how have your appointments been going? Sorry, I was trying so hard not to ask.\u201d<br>\u201cWell, you are all paying for the sessions.\u201d Savannah begins, but Nastassya interrupts. <br>\u201cYou don&#8217;t owe us anything based on that, seriously. It&#8217;s a gift.\u201d<br>\u201cBut we are nervous about the festival,\u201d Jenny says. <br>&#8220;I don&#8217;t mind talking about the sessions,\u201d Savannah says. \u201cThey&#8217;re fun. In my third one, well, this might seem strange to you, but there are a lot of things before getting on the plane that I felt nervous about, and one was even setting my alarm to get up for the flight. Then another was riding to the airport with you all, parking and walking into the airport. So, we desensitized all of that. Then the last one so far, which was yesterday, we worked on all the way up to the boarding, and I still have four weeks left before the trip.\u201d<br>\u201cFive weeks,\u201d Jenny says.<br>\u201cEven better.\u201d<br><br>\u201cSo, how does that work?\u201d Zazzy asks. \u201cIt sounds kind of scary.\u201d<br>\u201cIt sounds the opposite of scary.\u201d Min-Ji  protests.<br>\u201cDesensitization?\u201d Savannah asks. \u201cOh, it&#8217;s really calming. I have a relaxing place in my imagination. For me, it&#8217;s in the mountains with a beautiful sparkly blue stream and tall evergreens and sunshine and flowers, and whenever I start to feel anxious, we go back there, and I calm down, and then we proceed with whatever we are working on until no anxiety or fear or anything bad comes up.\u201d<br>\u201cI love that,\u201d Min-Ji  says.<br>Savannah stands and stretches. \u201cNext practice, let&#8217;s do a run-through of our entire festival set without stopping, okay?\u201d<br><br>Four weeks later, Savannah announces that she&#8217;s finished her hypnotherapy sessions and is no longer afraid of flying. The rest of the band applauds, and she twirls around the room, taking bows. <br>\u201cI feel so free,\u201d she says. <br>\u201cDid boarding take more than one session?\u201d<br>\u201cNo, that was just one, but then getting to my seat took one because that&#8217;s when I started feeling anxious the last time I flew. Then I got to my seat and threw the whole flight in one session, and then we did one more session to reinforce it all, and so I could have a recording to listen to anytime.\u201d<br>\u201cOh, that&#8217;s nice,\u201d Min-Ji  says.<br><br>When it&#8217;s time to leave for the festival, Savannah has repacked with ease, chosen a book that will last through a long delay, and eaten healthily. As they board the plane, her bandmates check on her regularly and are reassured that she doesn&#8217;t seem to be hiding any worries. During the flight, Savannah dozes off, her head down on the tray in front of her, which makes her neck hurt. <br>\u201cI hate these seats,\u201d she tells Nastassya. \u201cBut I\u2019m so relieved to not feel scared.\u201d<br>\t<br>David, the reporter that interviewed Savannah, signed up as a festival volunteer and got himself appointed to the greeting committee. He\u2019s grown a mustache and goatee, and Savannah suspects he\u2019s trying to look older, which he does. <br>\u201cHow was the flight?\u201d he asks Savannah after introducing himself to the other band members.<br>\u201cSuper uncomfortable but not at all frightening,\u201d she says.<br>\u201cThat\u2019s great!\u201d He drives them to their hotel, where they have two nice rooms, and then promises to pick them up before their first performance the next evening. <br>\t<br>\u201cYou\u2019ve got to ask him out for lunch tomorrow\u2014or something,\u201d Nastassya tells Savannah once he\u2019s gone. \u201cHe has such a crush on you.\u201d<br>\u201cI\u2019ve been thinking about it,\u201d Savannah admits with a smile.<br><br>The band performs in an open outdoor tent on a blocked off street in the middle of town. The audience inside the tent area already has high energy from the opening act, a popular local hip hop group, and this carries over into the Flypaper\u2019s performance. They end their final set with their crowd pleaser \u201cI\u2019ve Lived Hard and My Face Shows it,\u201d and even though most attendees haven\u2019t heard it before, it sounds like almost everyone joins in enthusiastically with the simple chorus. \t<br><br>The band waves thank yous to the audience and heads to the back of the outdoor stage. David greets them excitedly, saying, \u201cThey want an encore!\u201d<br>The Flypapers have never played at the type of venue nor for the kind of audience that requests encores, and their energy soars. <br>\u201cLet\u2019s dedicate this one to your hypnotherapist!\u201d Min-Ji shouts as they run back on stage.<br><br>Thank you for joining us in Sunnyside!<br><br>Would you like to support our show? Why, thanks! Listen and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite app.<br><br>Thank you to High Street Jack for our theme song, and thank you, Makiko, for doing all the post-production work!<br><br>Thank you, Karisha, for writing our stories.<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div><\/div>\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\" data-block-type=\"core\"><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Savannah Cisneros\u2019s band Flypaper has been offered an amazing opportunity that involves traveling by plane, something Savannah is afraid to do. She doesn\u2019t want to let her band down, but she\u2019s terrified. Listen in to hear hosts Karisha and Makiko discuss different ways to deal with discomfort. They also explain why our decision-making becomes less flexible in times of stress. \u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"featured_media":3347,"template":"","class_list":["post-3338","podcast_episode","type-podcast_episode","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"blocksy_meta":{"has_hero_section":"enabled","hero_elements":[{"id":"custom_title","enabled":false,"heading_tag":"h1","title":"\u30db\u30fc\u30e0","__id":"xaoQdgiJ54J2_632lMvXT"},{"id":"custom_description","enabled":false,"description_visibility":{"desktop":true,"tablet":true,"mobile":false},"__id":"f3oEkgNMK77E9nVLfZS5i"},{"id":"custom_meta","enabled":false,"meta_elements":[{"id":"author","enabled":true,"label":"By","has_author_avatar":"yes","avatar_size":25},{"id":"post_date","enabled":true,"label":"On","date_format_source":"default","date_format":"M j, Y"},{"id":"updated_date","enabled":false,"label":"On","date_format_source":"default","date_format":"M j, Y"},{"id":"categories","enabled":true,"label":"\u30ab\u30c6\u30b4\u30ea\u30fc","style":"simple"},{"id":"comments","enabled":true}],"page_meta_elements":{"joined":true,"articles_count":true,"comments":true},"__id":"P5QBO3t5r7cKTemfy3ic0"},{"id":"breadcrumbs","enabled":false,"__id":"TrcXRbvI6hsCjWdgiruRL"}],"styles_descriptor":{"styles":{"desktop":"[data-prefix=\"podcast_episode_single\"] .entry-header .page-title {--theme-font-size:30px;} [data-prefix=\"podcast_episode_single\"] .entry-header .entry-meta {--theme-font-weight:600;--theme-text-transform:uppercase;--theme-font-size:12px;--theme-line-height:1.3;}","tablet":"","mobile":""},"google_fonts":{"Inter":["n4","n6"]},"version":6}},"yoast_head":"\n<title>Fear of Flying? 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